Build Your Own Clone Message Board

Let me start by saying, I have built several OD's, 5 OD 2's, 2 Analog Delay's, a Lazy Sprocket and other I can’t think of. The Phase Royal build was fine. However, I don’t recall seeing a step in the instructions telling you to populate the socket on the bottom side before you mount the PCB in the case. I could be wrong.

Anyway, here is my problem. The Phase Royal does not produce a deep lush Phase tone. I’m not good at describing sound, or tone, but I’ll try.

I expected this to sound like my Phase 90 with move versatility. I spent an hour+ adjusting the trim pot along with trying different setting suggested on the message board. The Phase Royal sounds thin and tinny compared to the Phase 90. I found the sweet spot on the trim pot. Beyond the sweet spot, the phase disappears. Turn the pot the other direction from the sweet spot, and the sound becomes very harsh, then noisy. So, I think I found the sweet spot, but it still doesn’t have the correct tone. It’s not deep enough. Both in terms of the depth of the phase and low frequencies are reduced.

When I A/B from the Phase 90 to the Phase Royal, it sounds like I switched from a stereo sound to an old AM transistor radio. While this is an exaggeration, I hope it helps describe the sound.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Has anyone else A/B’d the Phase 90 the Phase Royal?

The two circuits are very nearly identical. If you adjust the mix pot for dry signal only, do you still get a loss of bass?

Good question. I just tested it and the answer is yes. When adjust the mix pot for a dry signal, I expeerience a slight loss of bass.

Does this help?

I'm having the same problem with mine. There is definitely less bottom end when the pedal is on the the mix is in the full clockwise position. It sounds thin to me.

Is there a definitive answer to this problem yet?

Thanks,

Cyril

Not sure why you aren't getting the tone you would expect from a Phase90 based circuit. Sounds like maybe one of more of your phase stages aren't "firing". Signal is passed, but it's stuck in a position that is on the thinner side of the sweep. That would be a difficult thing to determine without being able to isolate the input and output of each individual phase stage. One thing you could try is to socket all the JFETs. Put it in 6-stage mode, and add each of the JFETS to the circuit, while it's on, one at a time. You should hear an increase in phase shifting as each JFET is added.

Anyhow.....here are some mods you could try that would address the things you want to change:

Wet phase signal with more bottom end - replace all the .047uf caps that feed the non-inverting input of all the phase stage op amps with .1uf caps.

More overall bottom end - Replace the .047uf C11 with a lager cap. This cap was added to the circuit because the mix pot is referenced to vref and the signal needed to be decoupled before going into the output buffer. So a relatively large cap could be used here. A 1uf film cap with a 5mm spacing would be perfect. You could use a 1uf - 10uf electrolytic here as well. Orient the positive towards the mix pot and the negative towards the Q7 output buffer. You could also, of course try replace the the C1 and C12 caps with larger values. .1uf would be good.

Deeper phase shifting mod #1 - Replace the 2M2 R31 resistor with a smaller resistor. 1M5 or 1M resistor. This will give you more oomph from the LFO.

Deeper phase shifting mod #2 - Replace all the 22k resistors that are in parallel with the 2N5952 JFETs with a higher value. Try 100k resistors. This is what you will see this in some of the Ibanez and Yamaha phasers that are based on the Phase90. These resistors lower the overall resistance to Vref to the non-inverting input of each phase stage op amp and soften the "knee". Using a higher value resistor will increase the resistance range of the JFETs and give them a wider sweep.

I don't want to begin modifying the pedal if it is not performing as it should. I don't expect the mods to address the things I want to change. I expect this pedal to sound like my Phase 90 with move versatility. It's not even close and there are 3 others that are experiencing the same issue. One person sent me an email and said he removed all the IC's and re-installed. That seemed to correct the problem. To me, that would suggest a bad solder joint between the socket and PCB or an intermittent continuity issue between the IC and socket. I could be wrong, but regardless, my solder joints look good…to me.

I have 3 questions:

1) What is the page number where the instructions inform you to install the IC on the bottom side before you mount the PCB in the case? I’d like to see the instructions modified to include this important step.

2) You suggest I socket all the JFETs. Put it in 6-stage mode, and add each of the JFETS to the circuit, while it's on, one at a time. I should hear an increase in phase shifting as each JFET is added. If I don't hear in increase, what do I do?

3) If I do hear in increase in phase shifting but the tone is the same, now what?

Something is wrong and modifying the pedal is not the solution.

Thanks,

Good idea. mmarsh's clip of his build is located here: http://www.buildyourownclone.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22382 Please listen closely to what the build should sound like and let us know as best you can as how your build sounds different.

Let's please not jump to conclusions about a rash of Phase Royal builds that have something wrong with them. You characterized your build as sounding like "an old AM transistor radio" when compared to some other Phase 90 (a real one I take it?). You two other builders need to please start your own tech support threads. Describe your own symptoms as accurately as you can. Unless you have a build that sounds "like an old AM transistor radio" when compared to another Phase 90 (well...even if!), you more than likely have a dissimilar issue. I can very well assure all 3 of you that there have been many more Phase Royals built successfully without issues than builds that seem to lack some low end or worse.


What is the page number that tells you sarcasm opens the door to get your pedal working? Seriously, I think just saying something like, "man, I forgot to put the bottom side chip in before I mounted the pcb and it sucked because then I had to take everything back out! Maybe the instructions should include a reminder to do that!" would get things moving a little better than asking what page the instructions [that you know full well are not there] are on. We're here to help you out, there is no need for tactics like that.

While we're on the subject if instructions, please note that page 2 of the PDF, under the "Tech Support" heading, clearly asks the builder to submit certain information in order to speed up the troubleshooting process. Numbers 2 through 5 specify photos. Please submit these photos of your build.


With your build, are you able to hear the difference in phase shifting when switching from 4 to 6 stages? Adding each jFET one by one will do something similar. The point is that if your FET stages are working properly, you'll hear a slight increase in phase depth each time you add a FET. If you add one FET in particular that does nothing to the phase tone, you've helped isolate a problem that we can concentrate on troubleshooting.


Then we know that all the phase stages are working and your problem lies elsewhere. This is the essence of troubleshooting - breaking the circuit down into pieces.

Do you happen to have an audio probe/signal tester (most guys that have built the analog delay have one)? That might be of help on your build.

1) Page 4 item 2 states...

There is an 8-pin dual op-amp that goes on the bottom of the PCB.

2) Page 5 has a photo of the bottom of the PCB where you can clearly see the bottom mounted op-amp

3) Page 13, 2nd paragraph states...

Only add the 4 sockets that go on the top of the PCB. Do not add the 5th socket that goes on the bottom yet.

4) Page 19, step 10 states...

Add the remaining IC socket to the bottom solder side of the PCB.
(includes a photo of the bottom of the PCB with the IC highlighted)

I have to admit that I also followed the directions and waited until page 29 to install the IC into the socket. I had to undo a few things to get access to install it. It would be better if the instructions had you install at least the backside IC, into the socket, before the power and jack wiring.

Maybe it's just part of being a newbie / learning curve?

I can see where that would happen and I agree with you. When you get towards the end of a build, it's easy to rush to get it fired up. A little reminder to install that backside IC before mounting the pots would be helpful.

Point taken. The instructions tell you to add the 5th socket, but if people are confused by this, then I obviously need to add an additional step to make it more clear.

If the instructions stated to add the socket and the IC that would clear it up. Especially since if you read through everything before you start, you know that one of the last steps is to install the IC's. Like I said, newbies...

An even better idea, now that I've given it more thought, would be to just add one FET to each stage and removing it after you've verified that each stage is working. Add a FET to the first stage. OK. Stage 1 works. Now pull that FET out and add it to stage 2. OK. Stage 2 works. Now pull the FET out and add it to stage 3. And so on.

The phase shifting will be very faint, but I think it would be easier to differentiate or determine which phase stages are working properly this way rather than adding them incrementally.

Desoldering and adding all those sockets will be a lot of work. Ultimately, since it sounds like a possible continuity problem, I think the best course of action would be to just try reflwoing all of your solder joints first and seeing if that fixes it.

Thanks for the tip. I'll read through the instructions with this particular stumbling block in mind. I'll probably add a step to the very end of the "Populating the PCB" portion that says to add ALLthe IC's. I've found over the years that it's very important to keep the installing the sockets and installing the IC's/transistors very seperate, or people have a tendency to attempt to solder the IC's/transistors to the sockets.

I want to thank everyone for their help. Unfortunately, I've been busy and unable to work on the pedal. I'll try the suggestions over the next week or so and let you know how it goes.

Mine sounds super lush and is warm even on my bridge humbucker. I can make it sound like yours, but I can make it warm too. It's probably a simple thing causing it, because the pedal built correctly sounds awesome.

im having the same problem with mine is like the phaser is almost there but its not and transform in some type of distortion pedal that's how i can describe i even tried to to the mods of r31 and a c1,2,3,5,6,9,10,11 and 12 mentioned by keith on the top of the page but only maybe the pedal louder with the same problem... i was going to buy new 2n5952's because in my mind that's where the problem is but i could be wrong, then i read that they need to be matched so i didn't i need help at this point if somebody can help figured this out i would be very happy because this pedal is not working i bought over the summer 4 pedal that i built and this one is the only one that does not work
anyway i did some reading on the ic i don't know if that helps but here they are i used the 4 pin as the grond:

ic3 pins 1- 3.78v 2 - 3.77v 3 - 3.77v 5-3.77v 6-3.77v 7-3.76v 8-9.35v
ic4 pins 1-3.78v 2- 3.76v 3- 3.76v 5-3.76v 6-3.76v 7-3.75v 8-9.35
ic1 pins 1-3.77v 2-3.77v 3-3.59v 5-3.63v 6- 4.10v 7- 4.73v 8-9.40
****note pins 5,6 and 7 start at this voltage and start incresing and decreasing by asmuch as .50v as i left the multimeter on the pins
ic5 pins 1-3.78v 2-3.77v 3-3.77v 5-3.77v 6-3.77v 7-3.75v 8- 9.40v
ic2 pins 1-4.11v 2-4.10v 3-4.12v 5-0.93vv 6-0.80v 7-8.8v 9-9.40v
****note pins 1,2 and 3 start at this voltage and start incresing and decreasing by asmuch as .50v as i left the multimeter on the pins

ic5 - pin 5 3.75v, pin 3 3.75v

ic5 - pin 5 3.75v, pin 3 3.75v disregard this last note was a error


the ic2 pins 5 and 6 sometimes i get a rediang 0f 2v

dorivaljr,

Please start your own thread instead of adding to someone else's. While this is tempting to do, and your symptoms may seem to match, many, many, many, many times the cause is something completely else. Please open your own support thread using your own words to describe your symptoms.

Thanks! - Morgan